Curse

Forjo · Apr 26, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

So if someone gave you a High definition TV as a gift, that wouldn't be a gift because *** brace yourself *** someone got paid to make it?

You really need to work on your logic.

Your example is compelling, but not quite accurate. The coding IS the giving. So for your example to apply, one would have had to have been paid to GIVE the TV. Who made it isn't the issue and since are talking about a "gift" of code, my logic is sound.

From Dictionary.com:

gift
-noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

The minipet is not given voluntarily -- someone recieved a small portion of the money I and you spent on the product to write the code that causes a minipet to appear in the inventory of our character.

If you read my original post (as well as others in this forum), I try very hard to be fair. I am critical when I believe it is appropriate to be, but I also praise when I believe it is due.

I respect that you disagree with me. That is your right. But please be respectful in your responses.

-Forjo

VitisVinifera · Apr 26, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

wow several pages of semantics arguments......how boring

anyways, mini pets v.2 it is, so life goes on. Gaile has stated they'll be tradeable, so for those who are all disappointed, I imagine the hugely inflated prices at the outset should be some consolation.

Miral · Apr 26, 2007, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

Those of you turning two, do you feel special knowing you'll just get another minipet? Do you feel like Anet is really excited about you being there from the beginning?

considering every noob with a rich friend will end up with a full set of em while i just get one common one.... no, not special at all. customized weapons and armor ftw.

Kha · Apr 26, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

Your example is compelling, but not quite accurate. The coding IS the giving. So for your example to apply, one would have had to have been paid to GIVE the TV. Who made it isn't the issue and since are talking about a "gift" of code, my logic is sound.

From Dictionary.com:

gift
-noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

The minipet is not given voluntarily -- someone recieved a small portion of the money I and you spent on the product to write the code that causes a minipet to appear in the inventory of our character.

Your understanding of what a gift is... is quite sad. I buy video games, computer parts, and CDs from Best Buy. By your logic, I can never recieve anything as a gift from there because my past purchases say that I partially paid for my gift through physical components, research, labor, etc. You can replace Best Buy with any store, namebrand, etc. That's your logic.

No, we're not paying for the gift, therefore it is indeed still a gift. We paid for everything already. The birthday presents are additions. They're not given to us because ANet still owes us things for our money. They're given because ANet appreciates their customers - us.

Forjo · Apr 26, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

A service? Do you pay for it monthly?

You pay one time. What you pay for that one time is access to the game. That's it. You pay for the right to access their servers to play their games, that's it. Any changes made to the game over however many years the game is online, are not paid for by you (general you).

You bought access to their game. You are playing their game. Anet has fullfilled the part of their "service" that you bought. Anything above and beyond is not something they have to do, but rather they choose to. Whether they choose to in an attempt to keep people coming back to the game or to say thank you to the players for their patronage does not matter. You got what you paid for (the one time you paid for it) and anything above it is a gift of which you are not entitled to.

If you paid monthly... you might have a point.

I don't pay monthly, but I do pay bi-anually. $69.95 for a collectors edition and $10 for a preorder. That comes out to a little over $13 a month.

On the whole, Guild Wars is a wonderful SERVICE that provides many hours of entertainment for the $250 I have spent to play it (three collectors, three preorders). Note I am estimating "$250" because that is closer to what I would have spent if I had purchased from the beginning. (As it stands, I bought Prophecies Collectors later for a much higher price.) But even at $250, and considering that Guild Wars is not quote 24 months old, it looks very similar in real dollars to the subscription models. And this doesn't count the 11 extra character slots I bought in lieu of storage. Oh, and while I'm at it, how about the unlock packs that are now available? And the people who had to buy multiple accounts before extra character slots were available. And those who bought accounts to get around favor....

I digress.

The point is, that although on the surface the game is a buy once, there are numerous reasons that Anet have given us (either by design or by omission) to spend more money. It's not technically a subscription service, but many of us have paid more than others who play subcription based games.

In my view, that means I have a point.

And on the subject of entitlement: this is not a government program. This is a commercial product. Customers purchase products based on (among other things) what kind of product a company has already provided. If Anet demonstrates that even after their game is purchased, they'll continue to develop and enhance it, then this is an implied promise to do said development and enhancement. As I stated in another post, it is highly unlikely that Anet would still be selling a two-year old online game if it were not for continued development and enhancement. And I don't believe that Factions and Nightfall would have sold as well as they had if Anet didn't have a REPUTATION for adding content. Anet has gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to state that GW2 will have regularly updated content and NO SUBSCRIPTION. To state this is to create and expectation, and, arguably, a promise.

I felt the need to address the points you make, because so often I comment on how people fail to address the ones I make. I don't ever wish to be a hypocrite. In that light, I offer the following example of a point that, as yet, no one has addressed:

Someone else made the comment (which I can't confirm or deny as I wasn't there) that Gaile said that second birthday presents will be even cooler the first. I can confirm that Gaile posted on this forum asking our opinion about 2nd birthday ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The popular choice for a special second-year birthday gift seems to be a new set of miniatures. So, as we often do, we'd like to ask your ideas about this. What sort of new miniatures that you would like to see in the game? Please post in here and share your ideas. All the comments will be gathered and shared with the designers, so that this coming birthday will be the best ever!
Thanks a bunch for sharing your thoughts on this.

Furthermore, I believe Gaile to be an honorable person who cares about customer service and who genuinely wants to please the community.

But the very first post after her inquiry said "please, no more minis". Shortly after this threads sprang up all over debating whether 2nd birthdays should be rewarded with minis or something else. Although most if not all of these threads contained the typical flaming among the substance, most of the people who decided to post wanted something OTHER than another mini.

The poll right here on Guild Wars Guru ended with less than 9% of people favoring a new minipet.

So I stand by my disappointment -- which was based on my opinion that Anet should have done more in light of community requests.

THIS IS MY OPINION. If you like minipets then you are in luck. Judging from the Sapphir Djinn featured prominently on the Guild Wars Events page, you're in for a very cool one.

But a lot of people are disappointed. We believe we have good reasons for our disappointment and hope that by expressing that feeling that Anet will listen and do things a little differently next time. Historically, this has been the case. Therefore, I will continue to praise when I'm happy, and complain when I'm not. It is my right.

-Forjo

Bane of Worlds · Apr 26, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Minipets are gifts but they really aren't special considering that they're tradeable and can be sold for large sum of cash initially for those who get them first(some of the other players may have to wait a few months or later).That Djinn on the page looks sweet compared to those multiple turtles I recieved earlier last year.
Maybe they will give more teasers or sneak peaks on what creatures are in GW2.
Minis cannot be customized but what makes them special for 2year old vets?
Do they have some extra visuals when a year 2 character displays it?
Do they have an additional purpose besides look pretty and growl on year 2 characters?
or are they there so that the vets can make more cash by selling them?

Besides the minis, the events are quite a wonderful treat for those that may or may not actively participate in them because RL obligations keep from enjoying a great game.

Don't have time then come to the Shing Jea Monastery this weekend to play Shing Jea Boardwalk to advance the lucky and unlucky titles while keeping up with RL responsiblities.

For those that have the time to spare may enjoy winning Victory Tokens in the Dragon Arena, Dragon Nest, or at the Rollerbeetle Races.

Birthday Cupcakes which may be farmed for those looking for profit or to use in Hard mode to increase the survivalibility.
Claim prizes like the Sugary Blue Drinks, Crème Brulee, Flasks of Firewater, or one of three types of magical scrolls or make the celebration even bigger by claiming other prizes like the Champagne Poppers, Bottle Rockets, or Sparklers to make someone feel special.

Great event even for those that are not pleased with minis.

Rhedd · Apr 26, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

This and the other birthday gift thread are full of the biggest bunch of ungrateful jackasses I've ever seen.

Boy am I happy this whole subject will be dying soon.

If I were Santa, there'd be a LOT of people getting coal for Christmas...

IIIPowerIII · Apr 26, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Great cant wait to see what i'll get to sell it saturday so i can make some money :P

Forjo · Apr 26, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

Your understanding of what a gift is... is quite sad. I buy video games, computer parts, and CDs from Best Buy. By your logic, I can never recieve anything as a gift from there because my past purchases say that I partially paid for my gift through physical components, research, labor, etc. You can replace Best Buy with any store, namebrand, etc. That's your logic.

No, we're not paying for the gift, therefore it is indeed still a gift. We paid for everything already. The birthday presents are additions. They're not given to us because ANet still owes us things for our money. They're given because ANet appreciates their customers - us.

Again, you don't seem to see the distiction. It is not the act of manufacturing the item that makes it a non-gift. It is the act of paying the giver. If the person who gives a gift (not the person who makes it) receives compensation for it then it is not a gift. In the case of this particular virtual item, the giving and the making are the same thing. Now if another PLAYER gives you an item, then it's a gift. If some outside party pays Anet to code the item, then it's a gift. But the money we spent on the product pays the programmer(s) who "give" us the item.

I agree with you that Anet paid their programmers to have minipets appear in our inventories because they appreciate us as customers. I also agree that they don't enhance the game out of a sense of "oweing" the customer. But I believe that they ALSO did these things to make the game more attractive to us and other customers and thereby increase sales. When new players see older players getting perks, they want them too. And if current players see that by sticking around and not deleting their characters they get cool(?) stuff, then they're more likely to, ahem, stick around and not delete their character.

But how much more valuable would the rewards be if they were a) more in line with what more people want, and b) something that couldn't simply be purchased by other players.

And why ask what we think and then largely ignore it?

Please read my original post. I simply stated that I'm disappointed, stated why, and wondered why Anet made the decision they did. It's unfortunate that you feel so compelled to judge my "understanding as ... sad" simply because you seem to believe I don't have the right to be disappointed.

Is that your contention? That I have no right to be disappointed? Or that I have no right to express that disappointment?

If you do, I just might have to make a judgement of my own.

-Forjo

explodemyheart · Apr 26, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

I don't pay monthly, but I do pay bi-anually. $69.95 for a collectors edition and $10 for a preorder. That comes out to a little over $13 a month.

On the whole, Guild Wars is a wonderful SERVICE that provides many hours of entertainment for the $250 I have spent to play it (three collectors, three preorders). Note I am estimating "$250" because that is closer to what I would have spent if I had purchased from the beginning. (As it stands, I bought Prophecies Collectors later for a much higher price.) But even at $250, and considering that Guild Wars is not quote 24 months old, it looks very similar in real dollars to the subscription models. And this doesn't count the 11 extra character slots I bought in lieu of storage. Oh, and while I'm at it, how about the unlock packs that are now available? And the people who had to buy multiple accounts before extra character slots were available. And those who bought accounts to get around favor....

Once you buy the game, you are not continually paying for anything. Like I said before, you are paying for access to the campaign that you buy and what comes with the game as it was when it was released. You are not paying continually for maintenence or cool, new features. You're paying for access to the game. That's it. The ability to access their servers (not even the right to), and if you're buying CE you're buying the ability to access their servers and what comes in the CE box (pins, maps, books, etc.). You got what was actually promised when you bought the game and even then, Anet can take it away whenever they choose for whatever reason they choose to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

And on the subject of entitlement: this is not a government program. This is a commercial product.

The word entitlement is not mutually exclusive with government. Entitlement still applies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

Customers purchase products based on (among other things) what kind of product a company has already provided. If Anet demonstrates that even after their game is purchased, they'll continue to develop and enhance it, then this is an implied promise to do said development and enhancement. As I stated in another post, it is highly unlikely that Anet would still be selling a two-year old online game if it were not for continued development and enhancement. And I don't believe that Factions and Nightfall would have sold as well as they had if Anet didn't have a REPUTATION for adding content. Anet has gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to state that GW2 will have regularly updated content and NO SUBSCRIPTION. To state this is to create and expectation, and, arguably, a promise.

I agree with you in that Anet would not have been so successful if they had not chosen to continue development and enchancement. However, that in no way means you're entitled to what they give you after you buy it! The reason behind why they do it really has no business being in your argument because it is a moot point. The fact is that they do it, it is not something that you were promised, they don't have to do it, you are not entitled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

But a lot of people are disappointed. We believe we have good reasons for our disappointment and hope that by expressing that feeling that Anet will listen and do things a little differently next time. Historically, this has been the case. Therefore, I will continue to praise when I'm happy, and complain when I'm not. It is my right.

You're free to feel disappointed, I honestly don't care. You don't have to enjoy what you're being given. The attitude of "screw you, Anet" and the like, however, is not okay BECAUSE IT'S A GIFT.

I take issue with the nasty attitudes from entitlement and I take issue with your argument because it is a gift, no matter how you want to try and spin it to look differently.

Knightsaber Sith · Apr 26, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

If the person who gives a gift (not the person who makes it) receives compensation for it then it is not a gift.

WRONG, if the person that received it paid for it, then it's not a gift. Did you walk up to a dev, hand them $5 and ask them to make you a minipet? Nope. You didn't pay for it, they give it to you. It's a gift!!!

KingKryton · Apr 26, 2007, 02:40 AM // 02:40

aw crap! not more miniatures

was looking forward to the 2nd birthday now i dont really care

im now taking offer on my useless minipet, highest offer gets whatever it is!

Dubby · Apr 26, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

What... what happened to this thread!?

I check on it now, and good lord! All it is, is a couple of people arguing at each other. If boardwalk is what I think it is, then that'll make me quite happy - no more grinding areas to get the last of canthan GMC - yay! As for presents... well, I deleted my characters before I knew what a present was - and even though my account will be turning 24 months old, the oldest character I have is barely even 2 months old.

So, I'm not exactly pleased with the birthday presents being based on characters.

FelixCarter · Apr 26, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

If I were Santa, there'd be a LOT of people getting coal for Christmas...

What are Charcoal prices at right now? >.>

As for the new sets of Mini's, I'm copasetic with it all. I'mma keep whatever I get (like I always do), but - truth be told - I was hoping for Disguises. ^_^"

C'est la vie, non? Arigatou ANet. ^_^

Muspellsheimr · Apr 26, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Unless there is something particularly special about this new line of miniatures, I think I would prefer there to have been no second birthday gift, as ArenaNet seems to have ignored many of the exelent suggestions for something new...

Sir Skullcrasher · Apr 26, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

I got two more months until my oldest character Grim will be 2 years old!! Can't wait for the new mini pet.

Rolune · Apr 26, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Well if you guys Reeeeally want to get technical.

It's not a gift.
In a nut shell it is many pixels put together to visually please you after paying for a large chunk of digital data and waiting a year.

The fact that we purchase the game gives us access to their service.(servers, updates, etc.) We pay for that through purchases of the game and anything else they sell to us.

They decide to "reward" players for having a character 1 year old. Cool.
They decide to "reward" players for keeping that character for another year. Awesome.
The way they do it is flawed in a sense. Since anyone with pixelated "ingame money" can purchase these items making the "reward" more of a novelty item anyone can have.

The fact that Anet owns every and all items, character, things in game makes me wonder how this is a gift.

We paid for the games. They own everything about them. The game is digital. There is absolutely nothing tangible about it.

It is in all senses of the word a service. Considering they own everything. You just purchase the "right" to "play" this digital chunk of data which visually/emotionally/physically

pleases you.

On the opposite end. It's not a gift if it's not yours.

Although then someone will come in here and try and justify the fact that we own the time spent on playing... Bullshit
The fact that you try to convince someone that you can own time makes you, and anyone who believes you, a (excuse my straight-forwardness) flying moron.
Anet owns everything about this game. Even the fact that it's installed on your computer.

Now whether or not Anet feels obligated to do something is their business. We payed for what ever they want to let us "play" with.

So I guess I'm still very neutral on this.

The game is not ours. We purchase the right to install it on our systems and play it. We pay for the right to be visually/emotionally/physically pleased. If that's not a service I dunno what is. We don't really know what we're getting but we are 100% paying for it. What ever it may be.

Why do I play?
Meet people and waste time.

To anyone arguing... Think a little bit. Stop being arrogant/prideful and think before you type. Have common sense(Hardly any left in this world I know). Use logic(Gasp wtf is that?! omg!!!!).

Your arguing on the internet. A world of non-tangible things digitally processed. Arguing about Digital data that you don't own.

What a fun world we live in.

With that I leave you.

~Rolune

Porkchop Sandwhiches · Apr 26, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

I'm assuming most of their resources are going towards GW:EN and GW2 atm. I wouldn't be complaining about new minipets... I'd rather they work on the new content.

-Loki- · Apr 26, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryth

No... Nnnnnnooooooooooooooooooo

No more minis for presents, we want something original gaahh!

At least it's not another hat...

fenix · Apr 26, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lubek

More minipets? WTF... Oh well, i hope they will be called "ANet Dev Team Member" and we will also get a new emote: /slap. Now that would be something really enjoyable. You failed a mission/quest because of glitch? Double click on a mini and /slap... You're tired of heroes/henchies acting like total retards? Hehe, target that lil fella and /slap! You want to shoot yourself because ANet is increasing mobs' numbers/IAS/movement etc., instead of giving them decent skill bars and teaching how to actually use them? /slap Damn, i really like that idea, maybe minipets could be a good thing afterall...

You fail. Stop complaining. Every other game in the world wouldn't care if you had been there for 2 years, but Anet give out free minipets. If you don't like it, quit.

Also, <3 Inde ^-^